What I’ve been reading: Deeper learning and moving past education as job placement

Published by Lori Pickert on March 28, 2014 at 09:26 AM

One of the most important things we do for our children is to present them with a version of adult life that is appealing and worth striving for.” — Madeline Levine, Teach Your Children Well: Why Values and Coping Skills Matter More than Grades, Trophies, or “Fat Envelopes”

 

Reading and loving Madeline Levine’s book quoted above. It certainly resonates with PBH:

“[C]hildren must have the time and energy to become truly engaged in learning, explore and develop their interests, beef up their coping skills, and craft a sense of self that feels real, enthusiastic, and capable.”

While we all hope our children will do well in school, we hope with even greater fervor that they will do well in life. Our job is to help them to know and appreciate themselves deeply; to approach the world with zest; to find work that is exciting and satisfying, friends and spouses who are loving and loyal; and to hold a deep belief that they have something meaningful to contribute to society. This is what it means to teach our children well.”

"No child is better off in front of a computer or practicing times tables. Childhood is precious. It is not preparation for high school or college, but a brief and irreplaceable period of time when children are entitled to the privilege of being children."

“[M]y professional career [is] encouraging parents to be present with the child right in front of them rather than being overly focused on the future."

“We delude ourselves when we think that our parenting is the singular engine behind our child’s development. Your children come hardwired with interests, abilities, capacities and temperament. They will grow, more or less into the person they are meant to be whether they have one tutor or two, go to math camp or computer camp, work out twice a week or daily. I'm not saying that the opportunities we provide our children our meaningless. On the contrary, I’m asking you to consider the types of opportunities you are providing, what is motivating you, and how well these opportunities fit with your child’s particular nature." — Teach Your Children Well

Keeping these thoughts in mind…

The new trendy phrase in education is “deeper learning”:

Simply defined, “deeper learning” is the “process of learning for transfer,” meaning it allows a student to take what’s learned in one situation and apply it to another, explained James Pellegrino, one of the authors of the [Deeper Learning Report]. “You can use knowledge in ways that make it useful in new situations. … You have procedural knowledge of how, why, and when to apply it to answer questions and solve problems.” — How Do We Define and Measure ‘Deeper Learning’?

So, hmm … let me see if I’ve got this right. Deeper learning is … learning that you can actually use. Ah.

Why do we even need terms like “authentic learning” and “deeper learning”? Because, as you know, all learning experiences are not equal. All learning is not equally effective or lasting or useful or relevant. We call everything that happens in school “learning,” but how much of that do you remember? Use? How much of it do you carry into the future and how much of it do you discard like a flyer pressed into your hand on the street by a guy dressed like a giant hot dog?

Howard Gardner has been writing about authentic understanding and authentic learning for some time:

[W]e’ve got to do a lot fewer things in school. The greatest enemy of understanding is coverage. As long as you are determined to cover everything, you actually ensure that most kids are not going to understand. You’ve got to take enough time to get kids deeply involved in something so they can think about it in lots of different ways and apply it — not just at school but at home and on the street and so on.

Now, this is the most revolutionary idea in American education — because most people can’t abide the notion that we might leave out one decade of American history or one formula in math or one biological system. But that's crazy, because we now know that kids don’t understand those things anyway. They forget them as soon as the test is over — because it hasn’t been built into their brain, engraved in it. So since we know unambiguously that the way we do it now isn’t working, we have to try something else. — On Teaching for Understanding

This conversation, depressingly, occurred in 1993. And I quote: “We know unambiguously that the way we do it now isn’t working” — “we have to try something else.” And yet … we don’t.

Would you say that most students don’t really understand most of what they’ve been taught?

I’m afraid they don’t. All the evidence I can find suggests that’s the case. Most schools have fallen into a pattern of giving kids exercises and drills that result in their getting answers on tests that look like understanding. It’s what I call the “correct answer compromise”: students read a text, they take a test, and everybody agrees that if they say a certain thing it’ll be counted as understanding.

But the findings of cognitive research over the past 20–30 years are really quite compelling: students do not understand, in the most basic sense of that term. That is, they lack the capacity to take knowledge learned in one setting and apply it appropriately in a different setting. Study after study has found that, by and large, even the best students in the best schools can’t do that. — On Teaching for Understanding

Ooh, “the compromise” — so reminiscent of “the bargain”:

“Mostly what I see in my visits to middle and upper grades classrooms are examples of what of Michael Sedlack, et al. (1986), long-ago characterized as ‘the bargain’ — ‘you give me order and attendance, I’ll give you passing grades and [minimal] homework.’ - What I’ve Been Reading 3.14.14

On both counts, that’s quite a compromise — kids don’t have to learn anything as long as they go through the motions. Thanks, education!

Of course, there are many, many educators who hate this and want to change it. But haven’t there always been? And are things changing?

And where are the parents? Do they care about the bargain that bargains their child out of actually learning? The big compromise that means their kids get good grades and a diploma but they didn’t really learn anything? Madeline Levine again:

“When apples were sprayed with a chemical at my local supermarket, middle-aged moms turned out, picket signs and all, to protest the possible risk to their children’s health. Yet I’ve seen no similar demonstrations about an educational system that has far more research documenting its toxicity.” — The Problems with Parenting the Future Elite

It seems that as long as the system gets our kids where we want them to go, as a society we’re willing to ignore the underlying learning part of education. It’s not really about that, is it? It’s about jobs. And income. And status.

And are our kids even getting a fair shake in that compromise?

Why, Levine asks, do we continue to tolerate an education system that not only puts our children under intense pressure, but one that doesn’t even accomplish what it purports to be doing? After all, most children don’t make it to the most selective tier of colleges, study after study shows that excessive homework is useless at best and counterproductive at worst, and, finally, even business leaders are claiming that even the best of the American education system leaves graduates bereft of the skills one actually needs to make it in the 21st century. — The Problems with Parenting the Future Elite

With 45% of college graduates living back at home with their parents, can we seriously say that the education system is meeting its first priority, which seems to be job placement?

When I was a high school student my first real job was bagging groceries at Winn-Dixie. This wasn’t an unusual experience. I remember as a kid that many adults would tell me with no apparent embarrassment that their first job had been at McDonald’s. Holding a job like this was just part of the cycle of life

Two events changed this in the 1980s. The first was the recession, which shattered the illusion of American industrial dominance forever. The whole idea of a good job for life on the assembly line was now seen to be dangerously naive. This is the era when “you absolutely must go to college to succeed in life” meme took hold.…

The second was the closing of the bootstrap frontier. By this I mean the severe curtailing of the ability of people to work their way up from the bottom in business. …

With formerly entry level jobs increasingly ones with … a limited career path and low pay and benefits, and the only way to career success seen as being through college, a new concept of work started to emerge. In 1986 it was given a name, the “McJob.”

The phrase “McJob” was designed to label a real and important effect, and presciently so as we see today. Namely the bifurcation of the economy. Nevertheless, it went beyond a critique of economic conditions to something more fundamental; it said these were jobs not worth doing and unworthy of human dignity to hold. It eroded the idea of work itself as honorable.

Today I’m amazed how many teenagers and college students don’t work at all, especially not at old school grocery bagging or burger flipping jobs. It seems that you’re better off getting in more extra-curricular activities or doing volunteer work to burnish your resume than actually working, which says something profound.The Decline of Work

I find this fascinating to think about. The jobs I had as I worked my way through college profoundly affected who I became and what I chose to do with my life — far more than the classes I took. At the time, I was unhappy about how working drained my energy and took time away from, say, my essay on the Transcendentalists. But in the end, it was the work that taught me about myself, what I could do, what I wanted, and how to make a living. I graduated and immediately started my own business. I went back to reading for pleasure and learning for pleasure, and I continued to learn from actually doing real work.

Jobs, including low-level jobs, can be incredibly educational — about how to work with people, how to stand up for yourself, how to balance your own goals with the goals of your employer, and on and on and on.

If kids don’t have time to do real work while they are young, they are pushing all of these knowledge- and skill-building experiences off until after their education — until they are in their “real” jobs! (Pardon me, careers.) It seems we don’t have time for kids to do a lot of things during their education years:

- actually learn,

- explore their personal interests and talents,

- experience real work,

and much more, but that’s depressing enough. We have created a system where kids have to choose their future blindfolded. When they finally get the opportunity to really learn, they’re already heavily invested in a path they chose when they didn’t have all the facts they needed to make an informed decision.

You could say, oh, but you’re homeschooling so you can still do these things, and that is true! But here’s the thing: A lot of homeschooling parents not only follow the exact same high-pressure path that school kids take, but they double-down on it and use homeschooling as a way to increase their children’s academics and extracurricular activities. So homeschooling doesn’t really have anything to do with it. It comes down to parents and schools and communities: What do we want for kids? And are you willing to buck the trend to make it happen? Are you willing to break away from what everyone else is doing?

One thing we might do is simply throw out the weird, arbitrary calendar that’s imposed by the school system and our culture. Kids have to be doing X at Y age, period, and it starts in preschool and doesn’t let up until you’re married with a morgage and a child. Lets up, mind you — it never stops. How’s your retirement plan going?

That imposed calendar creates pressure within our kids and ourselves to get them moving along that conveyor belt at a brisk clip, checking off boxes along the way. When you think of the number of 20-somethings living with their parents after graduation, why not go ahead and take the extra time to really learn during those learning years?

[O]ur children are increasingly deprived of many of the protective factors that have traditionally accompanied childhood — limited performance pressure, unstructured play, encouragement to explore, and time to reflect.

“[W]e must embrace a healthier and radically different way of thinking about success. We need to harness our fears about our children’s futures and understand that the extraordinary focus on metrics — high grades, trophies, and selective school accpetances from preschools to graduate schools — is a partial and frequently deceptive definition. At its best, it encourages academic success for a small group of students but gives short shrift to the known factors that are necessary for success in life.”

“We know far too much about promoting healthy child development to continue to tolerate the myth that success is a straight and narrow path, with childhood sacrificed in the process. The truth is that most successful people have followed winding paths, have had false starts, and have enjoyed multiple careers.” — Teach Your Children Well

So here’s the question we must ponder: Are we willing to give our children the gift of the winding path?

 

“I woke up thinking a very pleasant thought. There is lots left in the world to read.” — Nicholson Baker

27 comments

Comment by amy21 on March 28, 2014 at 03:50 PM

well, I was in high school and college in the 80s and 90s, and I worked, too. then I graduated in a recession and it was a good thing I had those waitressing skills, because they paid my rent. In high school we (meaning my classmates and I) were the cashiers at the supermarket; the people serving the hamburgers; the stockists at the drug stores. We were the summer camp counselors at the town camp, which served two purposes--a safe place for the younger kids whose parents worked, and a job for the teenagers. And now with the unemployment rate in RI still close to 10%, most of those jobs just aren't available to teenagers. Without even touching the education side of what you've posted, that alone is a great loss. I desperately wanted those jobs--I wanted any measure of independence I could get, and my own spending money was the first step. I learned how to budget, how to save, the value of ME (my time = money; how did I then want to spend that money?). I learned I had an excellent work ethic and that *any* job I put my name to deserved my care and attention. If I was going to be a waitress, I was going to be a really, really good, friendly, and efficient waitress. There is so much value in working--in working for others, too, and knowing what that entails (and learning how you feel about it). In having that actual real-world responsibility. It's a shame that this is being lost.

Comment by Lori Pickert on March 28, 2014 at 03:59 PM

 

most of those jobs just aren't available to teenagers

my 17yo and i talked about this article this afternoon and that is exactly what i pointed out — teenagers don’t do those jobs anymore because adults are taking them!

i agree it is a loss; that gentle, introductory path into the adult world is by and large not as available anymore. and that means kids can’t get those experiences and skills this way. so how will they get them?

 
Comment by Lori Pickert on March 28, 2014 at 04:11 PM

coming back to add…

the “taint” of the McJob happened precisely because adults started doing those jobs rather than teens. what was once seen as a perfectly legitimate teen job became an undesirable adult job. remember in “reality bites” (1994!) when winona ryder’s character shudders at the thought of working at the gap (with a college degree) like janeane garofalo’s character? we’re still at the same place 20 years later!

Comment by Amy on March 28, 2014 at 04:16 PM

Love this. As usual.
I had a wonderful first boss out of college. Here I was, a fresh new physical therapist and she was explaining to me she'd much rather hire a new grad that worked in an ice cream shop through school than someone who got a 4.0. I didn't really get it then (I had just spent the last 8 or 9 years in high school and college trying for a 4.0, but also always having a job that I thought was getting in the way) but now I totally get it. My first jobs were key to my skills dealing with all kinds of people.
I have a 27 year old brother living in my parents basement. They want to help him until he finishes that last year of college. Really??? How long has he been in and out of college?? He needs a job! Not more generic classes in things he's not interested in. I feel sorry for all these 20 something kids living in basements. Although there's no guarantee my kids won't live with me forever;) I am glad I can give my young kids an early start on finding their passions and learning how to learn and live, not just how to get a diploma.
Thanks for helping me give my children the winding path!

Comment by Lori Pickert on March 28, 2014 at 07:35 PM

 

she'd much rather hire a new grad that worked in an ice cream shop through school than someone who got a 4.0. I didn't really get it then … but now I totally get it.

having hired dozens of employees over the years, i totally get it as well!

Although there's no guarantee my kids won't live with me forever;) I am glad I can give my young kids an early start on finding their passions and learning how to learn and live, not just how to get a diploma. Thanks for helping me give my children the winding path!

<3

i’m more than okay with my kids living with me forever — i’m trying to sell them on a model of multiple generations living together! ;o)

Comment by janet on March 28, 2014 at 05:42 PM

i'm not sure the loss of mcjobs is what's hurting kids right now. parents i know seem to think that school is more important than anything, and so, confusing menial labor with making money, hand over the cash and tell junior to focus on school. kids who babysit are so over-scheduled they are barely available to work.

in the eighties, i worked "mcjobs": burger joints, garment factories, shoe stores. but i also interned in my field, volunteered, and created a nonprofit organization. sure certain no-brainer jobs, and working your way up might be history, but online fundraising for your idea (*your* idea)! and internships! and travel! there is freedom in not *having to* work your way up at the same place (forever!) and keep a pension. yes, it's risky, and doesn't require a degree (oops). 401ks transfer, employers are surprisingly eager to hire you (back) after you've done stuff they themselves never did. seriously. we shouldn't fight to get our kids mcjobs, but finally, finally, see the value in doing whatever we dream up. apple and nike slogans are all i can think of, ironically. is it just me?

Comment by Lori Pickert on March 28, 2014 at 07:32 PM

 

i'm not sure the loss of mcjobs is what's hurting kids right now. parents i know seem to think that school is more important than anything, and so, confusing menial labor with making money, hand over the cash and tell junior to focus on school.

this is exactly the point he makes in the (very long — i don’t blame you if you didn’t read it!) article: that parents think kids’ time is better spent burnishing their school resumé rather than working.

in the eighties, i worked "mcjobs": burger joints, garment factories, shoe stores. but i also interned in my field, volunteered, and created a nonprofit organization.

i think those mcjobs tie in with the better work opportunities — or at least they did for me. it’s a series of stepping stones for many kids, and once you’ve had a job and done it well, you feel more confident about doing the next thing.

my first jobs in college (at age 18) were secretarial and i felt *great* about doing those jobs well. a few years later, i had climbed up to better positions. but i wouldn’t have gotten to those jobs (and the job offers when i graduated) if i hadn’t started out at the bottom.

there is freedom in not *having to* work your way up at the same place (forever!) and keep a pension. yes, it's risky, and doesn't require a degree (oops).

well, the point about those work-your-way-up-from-the-bottom jobs was that they often didn’t require a degree either. :) they were the “i started out as a teller and ended up the branch manager” and “i started out driving a truck and eventually was VP of sales” stories.

we shouldn't fight to get our kids mcjobs, but finally, finally, see the value in doing whatever we dream up. apple and nike slogans are all i can think of, ironically. is it just me?

i think working as a teen can be really beneficial — and most kids are going to start out with mcjobs. *most* kids aren’t going to go straight to something really awesome and impressive; they’re going to need to step their way there. and starting when you’re a teen lets you get further — that’s my thinking.

Comment by Sarah m on March 28, 2014 at 06:07 PM

I graduated college 7 years ago and I *could not believe* how many of my peers not only didn't have a job (while in college) but had NEVER had a job...ever. I think my mouth hung open for days when I found out that I was in the minority. I had been babysitting since I was 11, detassling corn for 5 summers starting when I was 12, full-time summer nannying at 14 (minus the detassling weeks ;) and then worked at a cashier at a grocery store for 2 years, at a local Barnes & Noble for 3, and then as an independent contractor for 2 public schools while in college taking full courses. I got married the summer after my sophmore year, at age 20, to my (19 year old) husband. This year we celebrate 9 years, and we've never once thought about moving back in with parents even though we live on one modest income. It's just not an option we'd ever allow ourselves.
I can see where a lot of older people think my generation is completely entitled. I saw it in college, for sure. I was lucky I never once wavered in my major and feel that I use my college degree all the time, even though I don't get paid for it (yet). I also, during that time, paid for it myself through scholarships and loans, of which I have very little left.
My husband has a different story, though. His parents totally pressured him to go to college (he never wanted to), he could never decide on a major and flip-flopped several times before stopping with 1.5 years left, and a bit of debt racked on. He's been working full time ever since and has no desire to go back, but even though he's quite young and earns well for his age, he feels pressure again to just 'get the degree' because his pay has stalled. Even though he has excellent managerial skills, work ethic, employee relations and has succeeded expectations at all previous jobs (2 of which have called back to try to get him back!), now all he is getting is 'a degree is a base for this'. Basically, don't even try if you don't have that piece of paper. It's maddening.

Comment by Lori Pickert on March 28, 2014 at 07:40 PM

 

I graduated college 7 years ago and I *could not believe* how many of my peers not only didn't have a job (while in college) but had NEVER had a job...ever.

when i was in school i couldn’t believe how many classmates didn’t work (virtually all of them); i was in the extreme minority schlepping my way between class and sometimes two different part-time jobs.

thinking about what i was saying to janet above about how low-level jobs lead to better jobs, i remember applying for a job at the college radio station and *many* people wanted it, but i had solid job experience (totally unrelated, too!) that showed i was mature, responsible, trusted by my OTHER job, and so on. i was still a teenager but i already stood out among my peers not for being smarter or more capable but just for having more solid work experience.

he feels pressure again to just 'get the degree' because his pay has stalled. Even though he has excellent managerial skills, work ethic, employee relations and has succeeded expectations at all previous jobs (2 of which have called back to try to get him back!), now all he is getting is 'a degree is a base for this'. Basically, don't even try if you don't have that piece of paper. It's maddening.

that is maddening!

Comment by amy21 on March 29, 2014 at 08:25 AM

At my state university, the in-state kids all had jobs, and the out-of-state kids mostly did not. The dorms were empty of in-staters on the weekends--we all went home to work the same jobs we'd had through high school. Think of that from the other end, too--all these employers had us working through high school and then accommodated our college schedules so we could keep those jobs. By the time I was a senior, I was living in an apartment 45 minutes from campus, working 2-3 jobs, and commuting to class. An out-of-state classmate told me, "Your almost 4.0 is worth so much more than mine, because I'm not working, too."

My husband is in a position to hire, and he has hired people without college degrees. He is looking for a certain type of person.

Comment by Sarah m on March 28, 2014 at 06:14 PM

Something that I thought I'd add...a friend of mine had told me years ago it was her and her husband's goal to make sure her kids were world-wise and efficient by the time they were 13 years old. When I asked her what that meant, she said, "that they can be responsible, polite to others, and figure things out on their own by the time they're teenagers". That has always stuck with me. I think our culture has such low expectations for kids at all stages!

Comment by Lori Pickert on March 28, 2014 at 07:42 PM

 

I think our culture has such low expectations for kids at all stages!

depressing but i have to agree.

i would say kids can be responsible, polite, and figure things out on their own a whole lot earlier than 13, though! ;o)

Comment by Sarah m on March 28, 2014 at 08:16 PM

I agree! She meant able to live virtually on their own and take care of themselves in all areas (cooking, budgeting/money, education, etc.). :)

Comment by Lori Pickert on March 28, 2014 at 09:06 PM

a great goal! :)

Comment by Jennifer on March 29, 2014 at 01:49 PM

My mother was dead set against my having a job while I was in school. I was allowed to work in the summer holidays, but during the school year I "should focus on my school work." I did marching band instead, and it took up a lot of time, and was fun, but I would have rather worked. And I think it would have been more worth while.

In uni I rebelled and took a student assistant job at the university's rare book collection -- a wonderful, even spoilt, job, working among all those lovely old books. I just did menial stuff, of course, but I loved it.

Comment by Lori Pickert on March 29, 2014 at 06:04 PM

ooh, that sounds like a great job! :)

Comment by Opal's mama on March 29, 2014 at 02:44 PM

Hey Lori,

I just wanted to say how much I love your posts. My sweet Opal just turned one and I read almost all of your posts because I feel like I am learning so much. I also appreciate knowing what you are reading because I want to learn as much as I can before we get into some more formal PBH learning (which I plan to try to create more structure when she is about 2, if that makes sense?). I was curious if you had considered making a recommended reading list for those like me that want to read all the best info before getting into homeschooling. Anyways, keep up the good work and thank-you so much for all of your guidance!

Much love,
Amy York

Comment by Lori Pickert on March 29, 2014 at 06:04 PM

 

hi amy, thank you so much! :)

it’s wonderful that you are immersing yourself in this now!

funny you should ask, i’ve been working on a resource section for awhile now and i’m just getting parts of it ready to go up. there will be some recommended education and reggio reads there as well as some more general books on learning, making, and doing. :)

i’m going to send an email to the mailing list when it’s done and i’ll put a note here on the blog as well!

Comment by kirstenf on March 30, 2014 at 05:27 PM

[W]e’ve got to do a lot fewer things in school. The greatest enemy of understanding is coverage. As long as you are determined to cover everything, you actually ensure that most kids are not going to understand.

This.

I was lying in bed trying to get my 3 year old to sleep tonight thinking this very thing, and here you were saying it already. Get them to stay at school for 6 hours a day if they really have to, but do the bare minimum of teaching and then support them in following their interests for the rest of the day. Stop trying to teach them things that they don't need to know, and that's going in one ear (if you're lucky) and out the other anyway.

Comment by carla on April 3, 2014 at 09:01 AM

Thank you for challenging my thinking (again!!) - we are changing the way we "do school", and I am excited!!

Comment by Lori Pickert on April 7, 2014 at 03:30 PM

that’s wonderful, carla! thank you! :)

Comment by Mama Squirrel on April 14, 2014 at 02:32 PM

I don't know if this was included in a previous blog carnival--but if not, could I please include it in this week's Carnival of Homeschooling? Thanks! (I'll check back later.)

Comment by Lori Pickert on April 14, 2014 at 04:09 PM

i had one recent request to include a post in a carnival but i can’t remember which one it was. (#._.#)

feel free to include this if you like! xoxo

Comment by Sally on April 17, 2014 at 10:48 AM

I love this post. It's my first visit here, thanks to the Carnival of Homeschooling.
Every year I say we are going to do things differently, and every year we are back to the same old boring, but infuriating, thing. I am stuck in the textbook/homeschool rut and I can't find my way out. Even while I was reading your post here, my fourteen year old daughter (#3) was on a verbal rampage against textbooks, algebra, and other useless information that no one uses or even remembers after they graduate from high school. But she helps with Red Cross blood drives, babysits, watches documentaries, published a book at age 11, and has logged nearly 500 volunteer hours at our local nursing home in the past couple of years. She wants to learn by DOING, not by reading and answering questions. She can't WAIT to get a paying job! What do I do -- let her work full time (or as much as the law allows) and skip "school" for the next three years?? Even if I trusted myself to let go, I don't think we can do that legally in our state. I hate it that the world needs to see a piece of paper.

Comment by Lori Pickert on April 17, 2014 at 10:53 AM

in a nutshell, i think it’s important to shift education to a learner-centered model — so that she is spending *most* of her time learning about her own interests and signature strengths .. and preparing to make a life and not just a living.

i would start here:

10 steps to getting started with PBH — 

http://project-based-homeschooling.com/10-steps-to-getting-started-with-...

and maybe read this post about how we use a negotiated curriculum that puts our kids’ interests at the center of their learning life (but still covers the basics):

http://project-based-homeschooling.com/camp-creek-blog/learning-conferences

and maybe this one!

http://project-based-homeschooling.com/camp-creek-blog/self-directed-lea...

:)

if you do want to explore this more, you can join our forum and we’ll help you get started!

Comment by Sally on April 17, 2014 at 11:44 AM

Thank you, Lori. I just put your book on hold at the library, but I have a feeling it's one I'm going to want to purchase. I appreciate the links.

Comment by Lori Pickert on April 17, 2014 at 04:04 PM

i’m so happy your library had it! :)

i’m here if you need me — just come and let us know!

Post new comment